Talk:Penrhyn Crossing

Questions

How does the crossing keeper know that a train is coming:

• timetable?
  • what about special non-timetable trains, or trains running late or out of order?
• whistle?
• track circuits?
  • what about protecting signals other than red discs on gates?
  • what is speed of approaching train, and sighting distance?
• if there is no crossing keeper does train crew operate gates?
• what about if crossing keeper is distracted or otherwise forgets about approaching trains?
• combination of above? FarleyBrook (talk) 02:43, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Approaching trains in both directions run over a treadle which sets off an alert for the crossing keeper. There is an approach signal in each direction which clears automatically when the gates are set for a train. There is a 15mph limit over the crossing and round the curves above the crossing. Trains approaching from the station have to observe a 10mph limit through the station. If there is no crossing keeper the train crew does indeed operate the gates. Train crews are not generally told whether or not a crossing keeper is on duty so from their point of view the keeper falling asleep is the same as no keeper at all. The approach signal will fail to clear. The train can pass this signal but the crew know the gates are not open so must be ready to stop at the gates. If they are lucky they will see the crossing keeper running round opening the gates as they approach allowing them to continue without stopping. If there is no sign of any crossing keeper they will stop at the gates and operate the crossing themselves. --Peter Harrison (talk) 06:59, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

The crossing keeper also has a copy of the working timetable and weekly notice so knows when to expect trains. If additional trains are run that are not in the timetable/weekly notice then control will normally telephone the crossing to inform the keeper.

Some extra info about the treadles: The up and down treadles are connected to a bell and a buzzer (I forget which way round) in the crossing hut so that the keeper knows which way a train is coming from. The back of the hut has repeaters for the signals so that the keeper can see that they have cleared. An added complication is that the treadle timing in the up direction was designed before Penrhyn was a request stop so the timings for non-stop trains are a bit tight! Eheaps (talk) 11:06, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Out of season works trains generally have to stop for the crew to open the gates. I was once on a down PW train that failed to stop in time and broke the gate. I think the loco was Moelwyn. There were two on the footplate - one under instruction and one a passed driver. We platelayers in a guards van were just wondering why we were not stopping when we felt the impact. Date around 1988. MarkTemple (talk) 11:14, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for a very thorough answers. I am particularly interested in gated level crossings that have no treadles or track circuits which, elsewhere in the world, cause accidents should the gatekeeper not be alert for any reason. FarleyBrook (talk) 03:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Are there any picture(s) of the signal protecting the Penrhyn Crossing? FarleyBrook (talk) 03:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

A slight disadvantage of the treadles is that they may not be directional, and sound the alert while the train is departing the crossing? FarleyBrook (talk) 03:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

A picture of the up Penrhyn Crossing signal taken in June 2015. The first signals of the FR revival were colour lights to protect Quarry Lane (or Lottie's) Crossing.

Crossing Signal

The up Penryn Crossing protection signal in June 2015 (photo: Mark Temple)

The first signals of the revived FR were the two installed by 1957 to show if Lottie's Crossing gates were open for the train. The up one is seen here on the left as FRSL LAG volunteers dig out the track in Jan 1961. Photo: Ron Fisher.

MarkTemple (talk) 05:01, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I've never been crossing keeper so I don't know for sure re the treadles - User:Eheaps would probably be able to advise. I suspect you are right and that the warning does sound while the train is heading away from the crossing. However, as the train will have just passed over the crossing it shouldn't be too difficult for the crossing keeper to figure out what is happening. --Peter Harrison (talk) 07:27, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

• Suppressing the treadles when the train is going away from the crossing is really only important when the crossing has flashing lights and road traffic doesn't want to wait any longer than they have to.

Now that it's being asked I'm not sure. I don't particularly recall hearing the bell/buzzer twice, but that could be because you're still in the road closing the gates when the train strikes the treadle on the way out. I'll try and remember to ask someone who mans the crossing more regularly than me this weekend. Eheaps (talk) 18:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

• Since the single lense crossing signals predate tri-colour LEDs, presumably they show Black for Danger and Green for Go?
• How far are they away from the crossing? FarleyBrook (talk) 09:52, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Interlocking

Are the Penrhyn gates and signals interlocked, say with Annett Keys?

In other words, you put the signals to stop, take the Annett Key(s) out of the signal lever, and use these Annett Keys to unlock the crossing gates and open them to road traffic? FarleyBrook (talk) 02:54, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

In practice, signal levers are not necessary; you just need an Annett lock with some electrical contacts attached. FarleyBrook (talk) 02:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

There are no signal levers. The signal lights come on automatically when a set of sensors (some sort of electrical/magnetic contact and microswitches on the gate posts) detect that the gates are closed. It is thus important that the gates are always closed properly by the crossing keeper. When the crossing is closed the gates are locked with standard railway padlocks but when the keeper is on duty are not locked but simply secured with bolts/chains. Eheaps (talk) 12:12, 14 October 2017 (UTC)